Post by Marcus Langley on Nov 21, 2011 2:19:29 GMT -5
[Sun 20] [21:24:58] <Kario> So what's the scoop, Ell?
[Sun 20] [21:37:04] <Kario> Okay. I guess I'm going to have to run this again, which I will do after I grab some lunch.
[Sun 20] [22:01:00] <matejcik> well. what a meeting .e)
[Sun 20] [22:02:45] <Tod> pics are all scanned!
[Sun 20] [22:05:18] <Tod> of course, now my site's ftp manager is lagging up
[Sun 20] [22:14:34] <Kario> Okay, so are they all in your /adventure directory?
[Sun 20] [22:15:43] <Burrito_Loco> Hmm
[Sun 20] [22:15:58] <Tod> no, I'm uploading them now. Then I'll make a page for 'em
[Sun 20] [22:16:13] <TommyChong> Am I too late?
[Sun 20] [22:16:19] <Burrito_Loco> Dropped the lappy, seems alright
[Sun 20] [22:16:22] <Burrito_Loco> Nope
[Sun 20] [22:16:25] * Burrito_Loco knocks on wood
[Sun 20] [22:22:00] <Tod> this is taking a while, because it keeps timing out :/
[Sun 20] [22:22:08] <Tod> and is only letting me upload a couple at a time
[Sun 20] [22:30:35] <Tod> ugh, okay. Those are uploaded, now gonna make a page.
[Sun 20] [22:37:10] <Ellington> I might be heading out again, but keyo wanted to nail down trade goods, and matej mentioned the inf architechture
[Sun 20] [22:37:28] <Kario> Yes. What's your timeframe, Ell?
[Sun 20] [22:38:16] <Ellington> we need to leave in.... hour or so
[Sun 20] [22:40:13] <TommyChong> Seems quiet, we talking about art now? o.o
[Sun 20] [22:40:14] <Tod> done!
[Sun 20] [22:40:26] <Kario> Okay. Let's check out the page really quickly and discuss inf architecture.
[Sun 20] [22:40:29] <Kario> Trade goods can wait.
[Sun 20] [22:40:40] <Tod> okay, lemme know when I should show and talk about art :)
[Sun 20] [22:41:11] <Kario> Let's do the art now.
[Sun 20] [22:41:36] <Tod> allrighty!
[Sun 20] [22:42:31] <Tod> To test out the concept and best get an idea of how long this will take me, I inked all of these. If they end up not getting used, I'm fine with that, and it was totally my choice to ink 'em. I figure I can sell them, regardless. Anyway, I tried to come up with a wide range of personalities, builds, costumes, and netural versus active poses.
[Sun 20] [22:43:00] <Tod> It will be quite easy to flesh this out with more animal types. If we want 'em, I can make a ton. Here's the link of the art - www.thestorydragon.com/adventure/characters/
[Sun 20] [22:44:02] <Tod> I didn't get to the big cats, yet, but got fox, dog, wolf, small cat, rat, platypus and horse.
[Sun 20] [22:44:10] <Kario> Okay, these are awesomely cute.
[Sun 20] [22:45:08] <Tod> :)
[Sun 20] [22:45:51] <Tod> oh, whoops... I forgot to put the pug and the additional fox on there
[Sun 20] [22:45:58] <TommyChong> Nice.
[Sun 20] [22:46:14] <Tod> the guy with the booze and the pipe is not meant to be one of the three foxes. He's extra XD
[Sun 20] [22:48:30] <Ellington> I approve
[Sun 20] [22:50:01] <Tod> refresh the page for two more dudes
[Sun 20] [22:50:52] <Tod> so, I have all of these scanned in at high resolution, though they're not cleaned up, yet. If we use them and do a system where people can recolor them, I have line art for that. I can also paint 'em with watercolors and tweak them digitally if we decide to use a set number of recolored portraits.
[Sun 20] [22:51:41] <Kario> I like the direction this is going. I'd say to keep working on various other species types, and if we decide any of these don't match general attitudes for the world, we'll look at those individual issues as they come.
[Sun 20] [22:52:30] <Tod> sounds good!
[Sun 20] [22:53:04] <Tod> and it's also very possible to go back and do a few more costumes/moods for species I've already done 3 for.
[Sun 20] [22:53:19] <Mahmoth> I like the French Foreign Legion look of Male Fox 3
[Sun 20] [22:53:39] <Tod> I thought it might be good, with players picking their portrait, if they have access to all the costumes regardless of what faction they start out in, since then there will be more variety.
[Sun 20] [22:54:14] <Eskay> Well one strategy is to _offer_ all three portraits, and assign faction based on that.
[Sun 20] [22:55:04] <Tod> whatever you guys decide, I think we can have a large number of critters for players to pick.
[Sun 20] [22:55:12] <TommyChong> I did try doing characters earlier this week... img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/Paradogs/Fauxrates/red_civs.jpg apparently it is out of my league.
[Sun 20] [22:56:07] <Tod> oh, they're great! :D
[Sun 20] [22:56:37] <TommyChong> thanks. :x
[Sun 20] [22:57:51] <Ellington> pretty, tc!
[Sun 20] [22:57:54] <TommyChong> though I should note that they are not player characters. <.<
[Sun 20] [22:58:32] <Kario> Hee hee. We'll work something out. I like everything that's been shown so far.
[Sun 20] [22:59:21] <TommyChong> I haven't scanned the capital drawings yet, I will post them in the forum when I'm done coloring them.
[Sun 20] [22:59:29] <Tod> I'm really looking forward to seeing them
[Sun 20] [23:00:01] <Ellington> though soon we may wanna declare whos doing what, if we worry about consistency
[Sun 20] [23:00:47] <Tod> we talked about that last week.
[Sun 20] [23:01:24] <Ellington> oy, so behind :(
[Sun 20] [23:02:58] <Kario> Okay. While we've still got most of the people here, I'd like to discuss influence mechanics and how we want to work those.
[Sun 20] [23:03:08] <Kario> The issue, as I see it, is that this is a multi-pronged issue.
[Sun 20] [23:03:58] <Ellington> how do we want it all to work is one :D
[Sun 20] [23:05:05] <Kario> Well, how many lands do we want to be able to switch control, if any?
[Sun 20] [23:05:21] <Kario> How often do we want control to swap?
[Sun 20] [23:05:25] <Ellington> all?
[Sun 20] [23:05:30] <matejcik> okay i'll stop you two right there
[Sun 20] [23:05:31] <Kario> Do we want this control to have any benefit whatsoever?
[Sun 20] [23:05:38] <matejcik> you're talking SR influence
[Sun 20] [23:05:48] <Kario> Yes and no.
[Sun 20] [23:06:04] <matejcik> well, yes. SR influence is based around controlling islands, and, well, "influence"
[Sun 20] [23:06:15] <Kario> But I suppose that's a broader question.
[Sun 20] [23:06:24] <matejcik> i don't think that we necessarily want -this whole thing- at all.
[Sun 20] [23:06:34] <matejcik> (maybe we do, but it's only one of the options)
[Sun 20] [23:06:53] <TommyChong> oh crud, I have to leave now
[Sun 20] [23:06:59] <TommyChong> I'll check back later
[Sun 20] [23:07:23] <Tod> bye!
[Sun 20] [23:07:25] <matejcik> a counter-proposal from me, to get started: !influence is a competition among player-created guilds, not factions
[Sun 20] [23:07:27] <matejcik> bye Tommy
[Sun 20] [23:07:52] <matejcik> ...therefore, land control switching makes little sense
[Sun 20] [23:08:05] <matejcik> on the other hand, maybe it has effect on trading
[Sun 20] [23:10:46] <matejcik> as in, and i'm pulling this out of my rear so it might very well be a dumb idea ... you can join a guild specialized on trading certain goods, and through non-trade-related actions, manage to top some kind of ladder and get better prices on your special goods
[Sun 20] [23:11:26] <matejcik> maybe you get more luxuries alotted for you and the others have to fight for scraps while you can load up the cargo hold?
[Sun 20] [23:12:41] <Ellington> the pro to it being faction based is it ensures groups are big enough to have effects
[Sun 20] [23:14:42] <Eskay> I still like the idea of each faction having geographic extents, and varying those in big RP events rather than day-to-day business.
[Sun 20] [23:14:56] <matejcik> true. then again, the "conflict" can be faction-based but the individual actions can be guild-based
[Sun 20] [23:15:20] <matejcik> (as you can tell, i like the idea of guilds :e) wings in SR were not particularly interesting to me)
[Sun 20] [23:15:57] <Ellington> guilds divide the world into twos and threes and one or two big major ones
[Sun 20] [23:16:15] * matejcik should really pick a word (guild/wing) and stick with it
[Sun 20] [23:16:35] <matejcik> i disagree with that assessment
[Sun 20] [23:16:51] <Ellington> how many people does skyrates have? 50?
[Sun 20] [23:17:04] <Kario> I think guilds and factions sort of conflict with each other unless we give them very different domains.
[Sun 20] [23:19:46] <Ellington> maybe we have factions do island control, and guilds for crafting, some tax breaks, etc?
[Sun 20] [23:20:15] <matejcik> in any case, guilds scale well. factions don't
[Sun 20] [23:20:33] <Kario> Scaling in which senses//
[Sun 20] [23:20:37] <matejcik> true, with 50 people, we would get what Ell said
[Sun 20] [23:20:43] <matejcik> with 500, we would get something different
[Sun 20] [23:21:02] <matejcik> scaling in the sense "still the same kind of fun for different total number of players"
[Sun 20] [23:22:13] <matejcik> Kario, why do you think factions and guilds conflict?
[Sun 20] [23:22:40] <Burrito_Loco> Turf control either needs to be slow enough to handle reasonably for someone logging in once a day or meaningless
[Sun 20] [23:22:50] <Burrito_Loco> (in a mechanical sense)
[Sun 20] [23:23:10] <Burrito_Loco> In terms of names "wing" fits nicely with the theme
[Sun 20] [23:24:09] <matejcik> right .e) also, if it grows, it could become a "squadron" ;e)
[Sun 20] [23:26:33] <matejcik> (is that my fault?)
[Sun 20] [23:26:35] * matejcik hides
[Sun 20] [23:28:02] <Eskay> People will want to group with other people of about their skill level.
[Sun 20] [23:28:52] <Eskay> This tends to lead to some groups being much more skilled than others.
[Sun 20] [23:28:54] <Kario> The idea of factions or nations is essentially tailored to a world control scenario.
[Sun 20] [23:29:26] <Ellington> we could have factions for island/world control, and wings/guild for crafting, combat, trade
[Sun 20] [23:32:03] <matejcik> Eskay: right. this might be solved by skill-based clustering, in some scenarios
[Sun 20] [23:32:44] <Kario> Since I missed a few key messages, I'm assuming the current topic is how to keep a couple of guilds from dominating?
[Sun 20] [23:33:18] <Ellington> eskay said people will wanna group with people of their own skill
[Sun 20] [23:33:25] <Eskay> "People will want to group with other people of about their skill level. This tends to lead to some groups being much more skilled than others."
[Sun 20] [23:33:48] <matejcik> Kario: what did you see last?
[Sun 20] [23:34:55] <Ellington> how big can we reasonably expect the game to be? if we release it on kong/armor and stuff, it will get huge (maybe)
[Sun 20] [23:35:03] <Kario> I saw you asking me why factions and guilds conflicted, and then I saw "tends to lead to..."
[Sun 20] [23:35:12] <Ellington> if its our friends and skyrates family... guilds/wings are too small to be fun
[Sun 20] [23:36:15] <matejcik> Kario: then you missed nothing of import. BL said this: Turf control either needs to be slow enough to handle reasonably for someone logging in once a day or meaningless
[Sun 20] [23:36:48] <Eskay> "(in a mechanical sense)".
[Sun 20] [23:37:20] <matejcik> about size, ell is probably right. also, wings technically -can- be added later, unless their mechanics don't do something horrible to the game core
[Sun 20] [23:37:36] <matejcik> *unless their mechanics do
[Sun 20] [23:39:13] <Eskay> If the turf control game proceeds in events, rather than continuously, and if the game moderators want to take an active hand, then it _may_ be possible to manually split large or dominant turf-control groups.
[Sun 20] [23:40:43] <Ellington> giving players their free will and spoiling it =/= good
[Sun 20] [23:42:28] <Eskay> Being a major drawback, yes.
[Sun 20] [23:42:33] <Kario> I'm going to agree with Ell on that point. Which is also why I think if we're going to do turf control at all, it needs to be done on a large scale like factions.
[Sun 20] [23:42:52] <matejcik> i agree
[Sun 20] [23:43:31] <Burrito_Loco> Yarp
[Sun 20] [23:43:51] <Ellington> so... factions for starters, addon wings and or guilds later?
[Sun 20] [23:44:03] <Ellington> much as i hate to just copy skyrates
[Sun 20] [23:44:20] <matejcik> also: considering that our factions are *nations*, having turf control as part of regular gameplay mechanic basically means that the world is at war
[Sun 20] [23:45:09] <matejcik> so i say we only change land ownership as part of big events (maybe we can run some wars?)
[Sun 20] [23:45:53] <Kario> I'm okay with that.
[Sun 20] [23:46:26] <Ellington> then what day to day influence do people get? why run missiopns? (aside from cash)
[Sun 20] [23:46:32] <matejcik> very well. now, what does inf, or !inf, actually do?
[Sun 20] [23:46:47] <Kario> I'm against the idea of influence as it was implemented in Skyrates.
[Sun 20] [23:47:34] <matejcik> well, inf-running is a good excuse for an endgame. and so far the only excuse we have, afaict?
[Sun 20] [23:47:47] <Ellington> pretty much
[Sun 20] [23:47:53] <matejcik> so let's put the question differently
[Sun 20] [23:47:58] <Ellington> I know i suck, but i gotta run. Sorry, guys
[Sun 20] [23:47:58] <matejcik> what do we want in an end-game?
[Sun 20] [23:48:13] <matejcik> too bad. see ya Ell
[Sun 20] [23:48:58] <Kario> Hm. Endgame.
[Sun 20] [23:49:17] <matejcik> we can have a faction-based endgame. which leads to turf control, as Kario said
[Sun 20] [23:49:18] <Kario> Let's broaden the question as to what the goals are for an endgame.
[Sun 20] [23:49:50] <matejcik> alright. let's see. sr/fr is an Elite clone
[Sun 20] [23:50:10] <Kario> Higher challenge level, rewards for the players, and something to keep them engaged?
[Sun 20] [23:50:36] <matejcik> what kind of rewards, and rewards for what?
[Sun 20] [23:51:27] <matejcik> higher challenge level, yes, and something to keep engaged, yes
[Sun 20] [23:51:48] <matejcik> also, (more of a) social aspect
[Sun 20] [23:52:20] <matejcik> i wouldn't mind more of a social aspect before endgame too, but i don't see an obvious way to add it
[Sun 20] [23:52:39] <Kario> Social aspect in what senses?
[Sun 20] [23:53:42] <matejcik> some sort of mechanism that makes it interesting to play in cooperation with other people
[Sun 20] [23:54:09] <matejcik> where "cooperation" should be more than "invite all your friends and send them gifts"
[Sun 20] [23:55:08] <matejcik> come to think of it, cooperation is not the key word here. for what i have in mind, competition limited to smaller groups would work as well
[Sun 20] [23:55:43] <Kario> This seems like the type of game better-suited to competition, though RP events could allow for cooperation too.
[Sun 20] [23:56:25] <matejcik> true.
[Sun 20] [23:56:52] <matejcik> the usual mode of cooperation are guilds. that's why i was lobbying for them :e)
[Sun 20] [23:57:54] <Burrito_Loco> A rose by any other name...
[Sun 20] [23:58:58] <matejcik> well, i was reading through the 300 game mechanics from that one link from the forum ... and there are some interesting pieces
[Mon 21] [00:00:06] <matejcik> that whole "zombie MUD" is inspiring
[Mon 21] [00:00:45] <matejcik> www.squidi.net/three/entry.php?id=30
[Mon 21] [00:00:51] <matejcik> but long. i haven't read it all yet
[Mon 21] [00:01:13] <matejcik> so anyway, back on topic. what do we want in an endgame?
[Mon 21] [00:02:59] <Kario> This goes back to the 'how long do we want to run our game' question.
[Mon 21] [00:03:10] <matejcik> huh?
[Mon 21] [00:03:17] <Kario> Skyrates did rounds, but I think what we're shooting for is something that doesn't require resets to keep it fresh, yes?
[Mon 21] [00:05:18] <matejcik> that would be interesting, yes, but i can't imagine a way to achieve it
[Mon 21] [00:09:00] <matejcik> let's see ... how would we avoid resets? by having an endgame that is by itself so engaging that people don't feel the need to do something else in the game?
[Mon 21] [00:09:44] <Kario> That's how I see it.
[Mon 21] [00:09:48] <matejcik> (and at the same time, built in a way that lets new players who reach the endgame participate meaningfully)
[Mon 21] [00:10:42] <matejcik> for that, we'd have to come up with an overarching "endgame-mechanism" for which trading and combat are just subgames
[Mon 21] [00:11:04] <matejcik> IOW, endgame=main game
[Mon 21] [00:11:23] <Eskay> Well, the main game likes you to make money and XPs. So an endgame that eats money and XPs automatically ties into everything.
[Mon 21] [00:11:36] <Eskay> Approximately as well as the main game does.
[Mon 21] [00:12:21] <Kario> Combat can in theory be extended indefinitly.
[Mon 21] [00:12:34] <Eskay> (Did I miss anything?)
[Mon 21] [00:12:47] <matejcik> (nope)
[Mon 21] [00:13:42] <matejcik> XPs are traditionally non-eatable
[Mon 21] [00:14:46] <matejcik> so, some sort of !endgame that you play with your money (and possibly XP, if configured well), and you get that money by running "chores", as in traditional trading
[Mon 21] [00:15:21] <Tod> maybe people could play the stock market
[Mon 21] [00:16:35] <Kario> I'm not doing too sell at coming up with new ways to keep trade relevant.
[Mon 21] [00:17:16] <matejcik> how about this:
[Mon 21] [00:17:33] <matejcik> you need money to play the !endgame. but you don't need increasing amounts of it
[Mon 21] [00:17:46] <matejcik> so when you hit the top tier, you have enough to play comfortably
[Mon 21] [00:18:05] <matejcik> and on lower tiers, you are a little short for playing meaningfully
[Mon 21] [00:18:38] <matejcik> (maybe that means you can play a turn every couple of days, or maybe you just better grind up instead of spending on !endgame)
[Mon 21] [00:19:27] <matejcik> so once you're on top tier, you still run trades to finance your !endgame (because that, by itself, rarely gives you money)
[Mon 21] [00:20:07] <Kario_> That was strange.
[Mon 21] [00:20:16] <Kario_> But that sounds like a simple enough solution.
[Mon 21] [00:20:33] <Kario_> Trade/harvesting remains a means to an end.
[Mon 21] [00:20:39] <matejcik> and having more money helps you, but also takes your time away from the !endgame, so you have to balance your heavy trading with that other activity
[Mon 21] [00:20:41] <matejcik> yup
[Mon 21] [00:21:17] <matejcik> now, what could "that other activity" be
[Mon 21] [00:24:58] <Burrito_Loco> Fighting?
[Mon 21] [00:25:01] <matejcik> this basic mechanism lends itself easily to guild-ization too: just have a shared money pool, with dedicated traders and dedicated infsters. this won't work on faction-scale, though
[Mon 21] [00:25:32] <Kario_> No, I agree. If we're going to input guilds, this is where they should come in.
[Mon 21] [00:25:36] <Burrito_Loco> Well, I've always liked the wing(guild) as the unit of meaningful player interaction
[Mon 21] [00:26:25] <Burrito_Loco> But really, high overhead wing v wing contests seem reasonable
[Mon 21] [00:26:51] <matejcik> fighting, hmm... how do you make fighting a money-sink? what's the overall goal, being on top of a daily chart?
[Mon 21] [00:27:09] <matejcik> endgame=pvp?
[Mon 21] [00:27:25] <matejcik> (maybe ammunition for good guns is expensive, haha)
[Mon 21] [00:27:49] <Eskay> Base versus base combat. Factory versus factory economic warfare.
[Mon 21] [00:28:15] <Eskay> When somebody drops off a Bullfrog full of trees, which factory gets the trees?
[Mon 21] [00:28:16] <matejcik> a nice thing about turf control was that the overall goal was in plain sight: color the map
[Mon 21] [00:28:33] <matejcik> that sounds interestin
[Mon 21] [00:28:34] <matejcik> g
[Mon 21] [00:29:56] <Eskay> Hey guys, I'm off to dinner.
[Mon 21] [00:30:00] <Kario_> Hm. Go on more about this factory--dangit.
[Mon 21] [00:30:00] <Eskay> Laters.
[Mon 21] [00:30:11] <matejcik> see ya
[Mon 21] [00:30:47] <Eskay> I'd like to go on, but tide and dinner wait for no man.
[Mon 21] [00:31:44] <matejcik> well, there could be per-island charts of some sort, and you'd have to do something (involving paying money into a convoluted scheme) to have a chance at the goods
[Mon 21] [00:32:12] <Eskay> Yes!
[Mon 21] [00:32:15] * Eskay out.
[Mon 21] [00:32:33] <Kario_> Charts?
[Mon 21] [00:33:04] <matejcik> those things ... you know. where you have a bunch of people ordered by how good they are.
[Mon 21] [00:33:17] * matejcik 's vocabulary is slightly limited tonight
[Mon 21] [00:34:26] <matejcik> the person on top would get the best materials, or most of them, and the person at the bottom would get nothing and their factory would stop, workers would riot etc etc
[Mon 21] [00:34:44] <matejcik> hmmm
[Mon 21] [00:35:17] <matejcik> scary thought: what if sellers had an option to pick a specific buyer?
[Mon 21] [00:36:16] <Kario_> I like the idea.
[Mon 21] [00:36:44] <matejcik> another: remember how PW's perpetual auction works? let's have factories, each of which can eat up a certain amount of goods in a period of time. (undecided) sellers automatically sell to the person who offers most money per unit
[Mon 21] [00:37:06] <Kario_> PW?
[Mon 21] [00:37:11] <matejcik> ProjectWonderful
[Mon 21] [00:37:42] <Kario_> Hmmm.
[Mon 21] [00:37:49] <Kario_> I like the idea of making the economy more complex.
[Mon 21] [00:37:52] <matejcik> ....buyers configure upper and lower bound for their offers, and they can't go too low because that means that the island's overall color is higher and attracts less sellers
[Mon 21] [00:38:00] <Bali1> I was wondering where the pinging sounds were coming from... I had this on persistant.
[Mon 21] [00:38:58] <matejcik> now, with the rough idea, what's to stop a dedicated player from manually feeding her own factory?
[Mon 21] [00:39:38] <Kario_> Maybe nothing.
[Mon 21] [00:39:41] * Kario_ is now known as Kario
[Mon 21] [00:40:21] <Kario> Consumption would simply have to be high enough to make it hard work.
[Mon 21] [00:40:29] <matejcik> sounds good
[Mon 21] [00:41:42] <matejcik> there would have to be a lot of non-player consumers, otherwise there is no source of money
[Mon 21] [00:42:01] <Kario> Right.
[Mon 21] [00:42:23] <matejcik> also, this kind of factory is not really a money-sink, because you can use it to make more money
[Mon 21] [00:42:44] <Kario> But you'd have to pay money to create one.
[Mon 21] [00:42:53] <matejcik> and maybe it produces something that is not a tradable goods
[Mon 21] [00:44:04] <Burrito_Loco> It needs to produce ego boosts
[Mon 21] [00:44:08] <Burrito_Loco> and nothing useful
[Mon 21] [00:44:28] <matejcik> yes.
[Mon 21] [00:45:45] <matejcik> maybe having many big factories makes you powerful enough to make political decisions?
[Mon 21] [00:46:06] <Burrito_Loco> Newspaper control?
[Mon 21] [00:46:39] <Kario> I'd say we'd be fine with vanity items.
[Mon 21] [00:47:37] <Burrito_Loco> So if you land on a skyland that a wing controls there's a splash about local news (maybe buy/sell tips, etc) that also includes a story about how awesome wing X is
[Mon 21] [00:48:25] <matejcik> sounds neat .e)
[Mon 21] [00:48:54] <matejcik> basically turf control without turf control
[Mon 21] [00:49:25] <Kario> Okay, that works.
[Mon 21] [00:49:47] <matejcik> hmm, what were the arguments against guild-based turf control?
[Mon 21] [00:51:32] <Kario> If we're going to have wing-based turf control, said control cannot offer mechanical benefits.
[Mon 21] [00:51:38] <Burrito_Loco> Right
[Mon 21] [00:51:43] <Burrito_Loco> It gets you bragging rights
[Mon 21] [00:51:48] <Burrito_Loco> and nothing more
[Mon 21] [00:51:56] <Burrito_Loco> Too fractious, Mate
[Mon 21] [00:52:11] <Burrito_Loco> Oooh
[Mon 21] [00:52:39] <Burrito_Loco> If we're willing to force a wing to declare factional alleigance we can do what Guild Wars did
[Mon 21] [00:52:50] <Burrito_Loco> allegiance
[Mon 21] [00:53:45] <matejcik> which is?
[Mon 21] [00:53:56] <Burrito_Loco> Where turf is fought over by the wing/guild but it's assigned to the faction
[Mon 21] [00:56:35] <Kario> That's a thought.
[Mon 21] [01:00:20] <matejcik> i have to go now
[Mon 21] [01:00:26] <matejcik> see you all some other time
[Mon 21] [03:35:46] <Tod> I guess the meeting's done, huh? XD
[Sun 20] [21:37:04] <Kario> Okay. I guess I'm going to have to run this again, which I will do after I grab some lunch.
[Sun 20] [22:01:00] <matejcik> well. what a meeting .e)
[Sun 20] [22:02:45] <Tod> pics are all scanned!
[Sun 20] [22:05:18] <Tod> of course, now my site's ftp manager is lagging up
[Sun 20] [22:14:34] <Kario> Okay, so are they all in your /adventure directory?
[Sun 20] [22:15:43] <Burrito_Loco> Hmm
[Sun 20] [22:15:58] <Tod> no, I'm uploading them now. Then I'll make a page for 'em
[Sun 20] [22:16:13] <TommyChong> Am I too late?
[Sun 20] [22:16:19] <Burrito_Loco> Dropped the lappy, seems alright
[Sun 20] [22:16:22] <Burrito_Loco> Nope
[Sun 20] [22:16:25] * Burrito_Loco knocks on wood
[Sun 20] [22:22:00] <Tod> this is taking a while, because it keeps timing out :/
[Sun 20] [22:22:08] <Tod> and is only letting me upload a couple at a time
[Sun 20] [22:30:35] <Tod> ugh, okay. Those are uploaded, now gonna make a page.
[Sun 20] [22:37:10] <Ellington> I might be heading out again, but keyo wanted to nail down trade goods, and matej mentioned the inf architechture
[Sun 20] [22:37:28] <Kario> Yes. What's your timeframe, Ell?
[Sun 20] [22:38:16] <Ellington> we need to leave in.... hour or so
[Sun 20] [22:40:13] <TommyChong> Seems quiet, we talking about art now? o.o
[Sun 20] [22:40:14] <Tod> done!
[Sun 20] [22:40:26] <Kario> Okay. Let's check out the page really quickly and discuss inf architecture.
[Sun 20] [22:40:29] <Kario> Trade goods can wait.
[Sun 20] [22:40:40] <Tod> okay, lemme know when I should show and talk about art :)
[Sun 20] [22:41:11] <Kario> Let's do the art now.
[Sun 20] [22:41:36] <Tod> allrighty!
[Sun 20] [22:42:31] <Tod> To test out the concept and best get an idea of how long this will take me, I inked all of these. If they end up not getting used, I'm fine with that, and it was totally my choice to ink 'em. I figure I can sell them, regardless. Anyway, I tried to come up with a wide range of personalities, builds, costumes, and netural versus active poses.
[Sun 20] [22:43:00] <Tod> It will be quite easy to flesh this out with more animal types. If we want 'em, I can make a ton. Here's the link of the art - www.thestorydragon.com/adventure/characters/
[Sun 20] [22:44:02] <Tod> I didn't get to the big cats, yet, but got fox, dog, wolf, small cat, rat, platypus and horse.
[Sun 20] [22:44:10] <Kario> Okay, these are awesomely cute.
[Sun 20] [22:45:08] <Tod> :)
[Sun 20] [22:45:51] <Tod> oh, whoops... I forgot to put the pug and the additional fox on there
[Sun 20] [22:45:58] <TommyChong> Nice.
[Sun 20] [22:46:14] <Tod> the guy with the booze and the pipe is not meant to be one of the three foxes. He's extra XD
[Sun 20] [22:48:30] <Ellington> I approve
[Sun 20] [22:50:01] <Tod> refresh the page for two more dudes
[Sun 20] [22:50:52] <Tod> so, I have all of these scanned in at high resolution, though they're not cleaned up, yet. If we use them and do a system where people can recolor them, I have line art for that. I can also paint 'em with watercolors and tweak them digitally if we decide to use a set number of recolored portraits.
[Sun 20] [22:51:41] <Kario> I like the direction this is going. I'd say to keep working on various other species types, and if we decide any of these don't match general attitudes for the world, we'll look at those individual issues as they come.
[Sun 20] [22:52:30] <Tod> sounds good!
[Sun 20] [22:53:04] <Tod> and it's also very possible to go back and do a few more costumes/moods for species I've already done 3 for.
[Sun 20] [22:53:19] <Mahmoth> I like the French Foreign Legion look of Male Fox 3
[Sun 20] [22:53:39] <Tod> I thought it might be good, with players picking their portrait, if they have access to all the costumes regardless of what faction they start out in, since then there will be more variety.
[Sun 20] [22:54:14] <Eskay> Well one strategy is to _offer_ all three portraits, and assign faction based on that.
[Sun 20] [22:55:04] <Tod> whatever you guys decide, I think we can have a large number of critters for players to pick.
[Sun 20] [22:55:12] <TommyChong> I did try doing characters earlier this week... img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/Paradogs/Fauxrates/red_civs.jpg apparently it is out of my league.
[Sun 20] [22:56:07] <Tod> oh, they're great! :D
[Sun 20] [22:56:37] <TommyChong> thanks. :x
[Sun 20] [22:57:51] <Ellington> pretty, tc!
[Sun 20] [22:57:54] <TommyChong> though I should note that they are not player characters. <.<
[Sun 20] [22:58:32] <Kario> Hee hee. We'll work something out. I like everything that's been shown so far.
[Sun 20] [22:59:21] <TommyChong> I haven't scanned the capital drawings yet, I will post them in the forum when I'm done coloring them.
[Sun 20] [22:59:29] <Tod> I'm really looking forward to seeing them
[Sun 20] [23:00:01] <Ellington> though soon we may wanna declare whos doing what, if we worry about consistency
[Sun 20] [23:00:47] <Tod> we talked about that last week.
[Sun 20] [23:01:24] <Ellington> oy, so behind :(
[Sun 20] [23:02:58] <Kario> Okay. While we've still got most of the people here, I'd like to discuss influence mechanics and how we want to work those.
[Sun 20] [23:03:08] <Kario> The issue, as I see it, is that this is a multi-pronged issue.
[Sun 20] [23:03:58] <Ellington> how do we want it all to work is one :D
[Sun 20] [23:05:05] <Kario> Well, how many lands do we want to be able to switch control, if any?
[Sun 20] [23:05:21] <Kario> How often do we want control to swap?
[Sun 20] [23:05:25] <Ellington> all?
[Sun 20] [23:05:30] <matejcik> okay i'll stop you two right there
[Sun 20] [23:05:31] <Kario> Do we want this control to have any benefit whatsoever?
[Sun 20] [23:05:38] <matejcik> you're talking SR influence
[Sun 20] [23:05:48] <Kario> Yes and no.
[Sun 20] [23:06:04] <matejcik> well, yes. SR influence is based around controlling islands, and, well, "influence"
[Sun 20] [23:06:15] <Kario> But I suppose that's a broader question.
[Sun 20] [23:06:24] <matejcik> i don't think that we necessarily want -this whole thing- at all.
[Sun 20] [23:06:34] <matejcik> (maybe we do, but it's only one of the options)
[Sun 20] [23:06:53] <TommyChong> oh crud, I have to leave now
[Sun 20] [23:06:59] <TommyChong> I'll check back later
[Sun 20] [23:07:23] <Tod> bye!
[Sun 20] [23:07:25] <matejcik> a counter-proposal from me, to get started: !influence is a competition among player-created guilds, not factions
[Sun 20] [23:07:27] <matejcik> bye Tommy
[Sun 20] [23:07:52] <matejcik> ...therefore, land control switching makes little sense
[Sun 20] [23:08:05] <matejcik> on the other hand, maybe it has effect on trading
[Sun 20] [23:10:46] <matejcik> as in, and i'm pulling this out of my rear so it might very well be a dumb idea ... you can join a guild specialized on trading certain goods, and through non-trade-related actions, manage to top some kind of ladder and get better prices on your special goods
[Sun 20] [23:11:26] <matejcik> maybe you get more luxuries alotted for you and the others have to fight for scraps while you can load up the cargo hold?
[Sun 20] [23:12:41] <Ellington> the pro to it being faction based is it ensures groups are big enough to have effects
[Sun 20] [23:14:42] <Eskay> I still like the idea of each faction having geographic extents, and varying those in big RP events rather than day-to-day business.
[Sun 20] [23:14:56] <matejcik> true. then again, the "conflict" can be faction-based but the individual actions can be guild-based
[Sun 20] [23:15:20] <matejcik> (as you can tell, i like the idea of guilds :e) wings in SR were not particularly interesting to me)
[Sun 20] [23:15:57] <Ellington> guilds divide the world into twos and threes and one or two big major ones
[Sun 20] [23:16:15] * matejcik should really pick a word (guild/wing) and stick with it
[Sun 20] [23:16:35] <matejcik> i disagree with that assessment
[Sun 20] [23:16:51] <Ellington> how many people does skyrates have? 50?
[Sun 20] [23:17:04] <Kario> I think guilds and factions sort of conflict with each other unless we give them very different domains.
[Sun 20] [23:19:46] <Ellington> maybe we have factions do island control, and guilds for crafting, some tax breaks, etc?
[Sun 20] [23:20:15] <matejcik> in any case, guilds scale well. factions don't
[Sun 20] [23:20:33] <Kario> Scaling in which senses//
[Sun 20] [23:20:37] <matejcik> true, with 50 people, we would get what Ell said
[Sun 20] [23:20:43] <matejcik> with 500, we would get something different
[Sun 20] [23:21:02] <matejcik> scaling in the sense "still the same kind of fun for different total number of players"
[Sun 20] [23:22:13] <matejcik> Kario, why do you think factions and guilds conflict?
[Sun 20] [23:22:40] <Burrito_Loco> Turf control either needs to be slow enough to handle reasonably for someone logging in once a day or meaningless
[Sun 20] [23:22:50] <Burrito_Loco> (in a mechanical sense)
[Sun 20] [23:23:10] <Burrito_Loco> In terms of names "wing" fits nicely with the theme
[Sun 20] [23:24:09] <matejcik> right .e) also, if it grows, it could become a "squadron" ;e)
[Sun 20] [23:26:33] <matejcik> (is that my fault?)
[Sun 20] [23:26:35] * matejcik hides
[Sun 20] [23:28:02] <Eskay> People will want to group with other people of about their skill level.
[Sun 20] [23:28:52] <Eskay> This tends to lead to some groups being much more skilled than others.
[Sun 20] [23:28:54] <Kario> The idea of factions or nations is essentially tailored to a world control scenario.
[Sun 20] [23:29:26] <Ellington> we could have factions for island/world control, and wings/guild for crafting, combat, trade
[Sun 20] [23:32:03] <matejcik> Eskay: right. this might be solved by skill-based clustering, in some scenarios
[Sun 20] [23:32:44] <Kario> Since I missed a few key messages, I'm assuming the current topic is how to keep a couple of guilds from dominating?
[Sun 20] [23:33:18] <Ellington> eskay said people will wanna group with people of their own skill
[Sun 20] [23:33:25] <Eskay> "People will want to group with other people of about their skill level. This tends to lead to some groups being much more skilled than others."
[Sun 20] [23:33:48] <matejcik> Kario: what did you see last?
[Sun 20] [23:34:55] <Ellington> how big can we reasonably expect the game to be? if we release it on kong/armor and stuff, it will get huge (maybe)
[Sun 20] [23:35:03] <Kario> I saw you asking me why factions and guilds conflicted, and then I saw "tends to lead to..."
[Sun 20] [23:35:12] <Ellington> if its our friends and skyrates family... guilds/wings are too small to be fun
[Sun 20] [23:36:15] <matejcik> Kario: then you missed nothing of import. BL said this: Turf control either needs to be slow enough to handle reasonably for someone logging in once a day or meaningless
[Sun 20] [23:36:48] <Eskay> "(in a mechanical sense)".
[Sun 20] [23:37:20] <matejcik> about size, ell is probably right. also, wings technically -can- be added later, unless their mechanics don't do something horrible to the game core
[Sun 20] [23:37:36] <matejcik> *unless their mechanics do
[Sun 20] [23:39:13] <Eskay> If the turf control game proceeds in events, rather than continuously, and if the game moderators want to take an active hand, then it _may_ be possible to manually split large or dominant turf-control groups.
[Sun 20] [23:40:43] <Ellington> giving players their free will and spoiling it =/= good
[Sun 20] [23:42:28] <Eskay> Being a major drawback, yes.
[Sun 20] [23:42:33] <Kario> I'm going to agree with Ell on that point. Which is also why I think if we're going to do turf control at all, it needs to be done on a large scale like factions.
[Sun 20] [23:42:52] <matejcik> i agree
[Sun 20] [23:43:31] <Burrito_Loco> Yarp
[Sun 20] [23:43:51] <Ellington> so... factions for starters, addon wings and or guilds later?
[Sun 20] [23:44:03] <Ellington> much as i hate to just copy skyrates
[Sun 20] [23:44:20] <matejcik> also: considering that our factions are *nations*, having turf control as part of regular gameplay mechanic basically means that the world is at war
[Sun 20] [23:45:09] <matejcik> so i say we only change land ownership as part of big events (maybe we can run some wars?)
[Sun 20] [23:45:53] <Kario> I'm okay with that.
[Sun 20] [23:46:26] <Ellington> then what day to day influence do people get? why run missiopns? (aside from cash)
[Sun 20] [23:46:32] <matejcik> very well. now, what does inf, or !inf, actually do?
[Sun 20] [23:46:47] <Kario> I'm against the idea of influence as it was implemented in Skyrates.
[Sun 20] [23:47:34] <matejcik> well, inf-running is a good excuse for an endgame. and so far the only excuse we have, afaict?
[Sun 20] [23:47:47] <Ellington> pretty much
[Sun 20] [23:47:53] <matejcik> so let's put the question differently
[Sun 20] [23:47:58] <Ellington> I know i suck, but i gotta run. Sorry, guys
[Sun 20] [23:47:58] <matejcik> what do we want in an end-game?
[Sun 20] [23:48:13] <matejcik> too bad. see ya Ell
[Sun 20] [23:48:58] <Kario> Hm. Endgame.
[Sun 20] [23:49:17] <matejcik> we can have a faction-based endgame. which leads to turf control, as Kario said
[Sun 20] [23:49:18] <Kario> Let's broaden the question as to what the goals are for an endgame.
[Sun 20] [23:49:50] <matejcik> alright. let's see. sr/fr is an Elite clone
[Sun 20] [23:50:10] <Kario> Higher challenge level, rewards for the players, and something to keep them engaged?
[Sun 20] [23:50:36] <matejcik> what kind of rewards, and rewards for what?
[Sun 20] [23:51:27] <matejcik> higher challenge level, yes, and something to keep engaged, yes
[Sun 20] [23:51:48] <matejcik> also, (more of a) social aspect
[Sun 20] [23:52:20] <matejcik> i wouldn't mind more of a social aspect before endgame too, but i don't see an obvious way to add it
[Sun 20] [23:52:39] <Kario> Social aspect in what senses?
[Sun 20] [23:53:42] <matejcik> some sort of mechanism that makes it interesting to play in cooperation with other people
[Sun 20] [23:54:09] <matejcik> where "cooperation" should be more than "invite all your friends and send them gifts"
[Sun 20] [23:55:08] <matejcik> come to think of it, cooperation is not the key word here. for what i have in mind, competition limited to smaller groups would work as well
[Sun 20] [23:55:43] <Kario> This seems like the type of game better-suited to competition, though RP events could allow for cooperation too.
[Sun 20] [23:56:25] <matejcik> true.
[Sun 20] [23:56:52] <matejcik> the usual mode of cooperation are guilds. that's why i was lobbying for them :e)
[Sun 20] [23:57:54] <Burrito_Loco> A rose by any other name...
[Sun 20] [23:58:58] <matejcik> well, i was reading through the 300 game mechanics from that one link from the forum ... and there are some interesting pieces
[Mon 21] [00:00:06] <matejcik> that whole "zombie MUD" is inspiring
[Mon 21] [00:00:45] <matejcik> www.squidi.net/three/entry.php?id=30
[Mon 21] [00:00:51] <matejcik> but long. i haven't read it all yet
[Mon 21] [00:01:13] <matejcik> so anyway, back on topic. what do we want in an endgame?
[Mon 21] [00:02:59] <Kario> This goes back to the 'how long do we want to run our game' question.
[Mon 21] [00:03:10] <matejcik> huh?
[Mon 21] [00:03:17] <Kario> Skyrates did rounds, but I think what we're shooting for is something that doesn't require resets to keep it fresh, yes?
[Mon 21] [00:05:18] <matejcik> that would be interesting, yes, but i can't imagine a way to achieve it
[Mon 21] [00:09:00] <matejcik> let's see ... how would we avoid resets? by having an endgame that is by itself so engaging that people don't feel the need to do something else in the game?
[Mon 21] [00:09:44] <Kario> That's how I see it.
[Mon 21] [00:09:48] <matejcik> (and at the same time, built in a way that lets new players who reach the endgame participate meaningfully)
[Mon 21] [00:10:42] <matejcik> for that, we'd have to come up with an overarching "endgame-mechanism" for which trading and combat are just subgames
[Mon 21] [00:11:04] <matejcik> IOW, endgame=main game
[Mon 21] [00:11:23] <Eskay> Well, the main game likes you to make money and XPs. So an endgame that eats money and XPs automatically ties into everything.
[Mon 21] [00:11:36] <Eskay> Approximately as well as the main game does.
[Mon 21] [00:12:21] <Kario> Combat can in theory be extended indefinitly.
[Mon 21] [00:12:34] <Eskay> (Did I miss anything?)
[Mon 21] [00:12:47] <matejcik> (nope)
[Mon 21] [00:13:42] <matejcik> XPs are traditionally non-eatable
[Mon 21] [00:14:46] <matejcik> so, some sort of !endgame that you play with your money (and possibly XP, if configured well), and you get that money by running "chores", as in traditional trading
[Mon 21] [00:15:21] <Tod> maybe people could play the stock market
[Mon 21] [00:16:35] <Kario> I'm not doing too sell at coming up with new ways to keep trade relevant.
[Mon 21] [00:17:16] <matejcik> how about this:
[Mon 21] [00:17:33] <matejcik> you need money to play the !endgame. but you don't need increasing amounts of it
[Mon 21] [00:17:46] <matejcik> so when you hit the top tier, you have enough to play comfortably
[Mon 21] [00:18:05] <matejcik> and on lower tiers, you are a little short for playing meaningfully
[Mon 21] [00:18:38] <matejcik> (maybe that means you can play a turn every couple of days, or maybe you just better grind up instead of spending on !endgame)
[Mon 21] [00:19:27] <matejcik> so once you're on top tier, you still run trades to finance your !endgame (because that, by itself, rarely gives you money)
[Mon 21] [00:20:07] <Kario_> That was strange.
[Mon 21] [00:20:16] <Kario_> But that sounds like a simple enough solution.
[Mon 21] [00:20:33] <Kario_> Trade/harvesting remains a means to an end.
[Mon 21] [00:20:39] <matejcik> and having more money helps you, but also takes your time away from the !endgame, so you have to balance your heavy trading with that other activity
[Mon 21] [00:20:41] <matejcik> yup
[Mon 21] [00:21:17] <matejcik> now, what could "that other activity" be
[Mon 21] [00:24:58] <Burrito_Loco> Fighting?
[Mon 21] [00:25:01] <matejcik> this basic mechanism lends itself easily to guild-ization too: just have a shared money pool, with dedicated traders and dedicated infsters. this won't work on faction-scale, though
[Mon 21] [00:25:32] <Kario_> No, I agree. If we're going to input guilds, this is where they should come in.
[Mon 21] [00:25:36] <Burrito_Loco> Well, I've always liked the wing(guild) as the unit of meaningful player interaction
[Mon 21] [00:26:25] <Burrito_Loco> But really, high overhead wing v wing contests seem reasonable
[Mon 21] [00:26:51] <matejcik> fighting, hmm... how do you make fighting a money-sink? what's the overall goal, being on top of a daily chart?
[Mon 21] [00:27:09] <matejcik> endgame=pvp?
[Mon 21] [00:27:25] <matejcik> (maybe ammunition for good guns is expensive, haha)
[Mon 21] [00:27:49] <Eskay> Base versus base combat. Factory versus factory economic warfare.
[Mon 21] [00:28:15] <Eskay> When somebody drops off a Bullfrog full of trees, which factory gets the trees?
[Mon 21] [00:28:16] <matejcik> a nice thing about turf control was that the overall goal was in plain sight: color the map
[Mon 21] [00:28:33] <matejcik> that sounds interestin
[Mon 21] [00:28:34] <matejcik> g
[Mon 21] [00:29:56] <Eskay> Hey guys, I'm off to dinner.
[Mon 21] [00:30:00] <Kario_> Hm. Go on more about this factory--dangit.
[Mon 21] [00:30:00] <Eskay> Laters.
[Mon 21] [00:30:11] <matejcik> see ya
[Mon 21] [00:30:47] <Eskay> I'd like to go on, but tide and dinner wait for no man.
[Mon 21] [00:31:44] <matejcik> well, there could be per-island charts of some sort, and you'd have to do something (involving paying money into a convoluted scheme) to have a chance at the goods
[Mon 21] [00:32:12] <Eskay> Yes!
[Mon 21] [00:32:15] * Eskay out.
[Mon 21] [00:32:33] <Kario_> Charts?
[Mon 21] [00:33:04] <matejcik> those things ... you know. where you have a bunch of people ordered by how good they are.
[Mon 21] [00:33:17] * matejcik 's vocabulary is slightly limited tonight
[Mon 21] [00:34:26] <matejcik> the person on top would get the best materials, or most of them, and the person at the bottom would get nothing and their factory would stop, workers would riot etc etc
[Mon 21] [00:34:44] <matejcik> hmmm
[Mon 21] [00:35:17] <matejcik> scary thought: what if sellers had an option to pick a specific buyer?
[Mon 21] [00:36:16] <Kario_> I like the idea.
[Mon 21] [00:36:44] <matejcik> another: remember how PW's perpetual auction works? let's have factories, each of which can eat up a certain amount of goods in a period of time. (undecided) sellers automatically sell to the person who offers most money per unit
[Mon 21] [00:37:06] <Kario_> PW?
[Mon 21] [00:37:11] <matejcik> ProjectWonderful
[Mon 21] [00:37:42] <Kario_> Hmmm.
[Mon 21] [00:37:49] <Kario_> I like the idea of making the economy more complex.
[Mon 21] [00:37:52] <matejcik> ....buyers configure upper and lower bound for their offers, and they can't go too low because that means that the island's overall color is higher and attracts less sellers
[Mon 21] [00:38:00] <Bali1> I was wondering where the pinging sounds were coming from... I had this on persistant.
[Mon 21] [00:38:58] <matejcik> now, with the rough idea, what's to stop a dedicated player from manually feeding her own factory?
[Mon 21] [00:39:38] <Kario_> Maybe nothing.
[Mon 21] [00:39:41] * Kario_ is now known as Kario
[Mon 21] [00:40:21] <Kario> Consumption would simply have to be high enough to make it hard work.
[Mon 21] [00:40:29] <matejcik> sounds good
[Mon 21] [00:41:42] <matejcik> there would have to be a lot of non-player consumers, otherwise there is no source of money
[Mon 21] [00:42:01] <Kario> Right.
[Mon 21] [00:42:23] <matejcik> also, this kind of factory is not really a money-sink, because you can use it to make more money
[Mon 21] [00:42:44] <Kario> But you'd have to pay money to create one.
[Mon 21] [00:42:53] <matejcik> and maybe it produces something that is not a tradable goods
[Mon 21] [00:44:04] <Burrito_Loco> It needs to produce ego boosts
[Mon 21] [00:44:08] <Burrito_Loco> and nothing useful
[Mon 21] [00:44:28] <matejcik> yes.
[Mon 21] [00:45:45] <matejcik> maybe having many big factories makes you powerful enough to make political decisions?
[Mon 21] [00:46:06] <Burrito_Loco> Newspaper control?
[Mon 21] [00:46:39] <Kario> I'd say we'd be fine with vanity items.
[Mon 21] [00:47:37] <Burrito_Loco> So if you land on a skyland that a wing controls there's a splash about local news (maybe buy/sell tips, etc) that also includes a story about how awesome wing X is
[Mon 21] [00:48:25] <matejcik> sounds neat .e)
[Mon 21] [00:48:54] <matejcik> basically turf control without turf control
[Mon 21] [00:49:25] <Kario> Okay, that works.
[Mon 21] [00:49:47] <matejcik> hmm, what were the arguments against guild-based turf control?
[Mon 21] [00:51:32] <Kario> If we're going to have wing-based turf control, said control cannot offer mechanical benefits.
[Mon 21] [00:51:38] <Burrito_Loco> Right
[Mon 21] [00:51:43] <Burrito_Loco> It gets you bragging rights
[Mon 21] [00:51:48] <Burrito_Loco> and nothing more
[Mon 21] [00:51:56] <Burrito_Loco> Too fractious, Mate
[Mon 21] [00:52:11] <Burrito_Loco> Oooh
[Mon 21] [00:52:39] <Burrito_Loco> If we're willing to force a wing to declare factional alleigance we can do what Guild Wars did
[Mon 21] [00:52:50] <Burrito_Loco> allegiance
[Mon 21] [00:53:45] <matejcik> which is?
[Mon 21] [00:53:56] <Burrito_Loco> Where turf is fought over by the wing/guild but it's assigned to the faction
[Mon 21] [00:56:35] <Kario> That's a thought.
[Mon 21] [01:00:20] <matejcik> i have to go now
[Mon 21] [01:00:26] <matejcik> see you all some other time
[Mon 21] [03:35:46] <Tod> I guess the meeting's done, huh? XD