Sunday November 13th - Trade II, Factions III

[Marcus Langley]

I slept through this one, or I would have had it up more promptly!

[Sun 13] [19:52:54] <Tod> when is the meeting?
[Sun 13] [19:55:21] <Tod> I'm drawing a giraffe arguing with a raccoon, and I need to make sure it'll be ready on time, you see.
[Sun 13] [20:02:42] <Kario> Another hour or so.
[Sun 13] [20:16:07] <Tod> awesome. This is almost done :B
[Sun 13] [20:25:01] <Tod> ... sooner than I thought. :D
[Sun 13] [20:53:09] <Tod> fauxrates.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=art&thread=27
[Sun 13] [20:56:37] <TommyChong> yay
[Sun 13] [21:05:00] <Kario> I like the concepts.
[Sun 13] [21:06:18] <Tod> :D
[Sun 13] [21:13:23] <Tod> I don't have drawings for the character creation idea I had, because I realized it probably would make too much work for something that might not look so good
[Sun 13] [21:13:33] <Tod> but, I have color art of animals, so... yeah
[Sun 13] [21:14:43] <Kario> Well, character creation is another topic entirely.
[Sun 13] [21:15:27] <Kario> I see no Ell or BL.
[Sun 13] [21:15:43] <TommyChong> I have no idea what to do the previous week
[Sun 13] [21:15:59] <TommyChong> so nothing. :x
[Sun 13] [21:16:21] <Austin_J> And I got some more work done, but I can't get my scanner working :(
[Sun 13] [21:16:48] <TommyChong> except img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/Paradogs/Fauxrates/char_1.jpg but you probably saw that.
[Sun 13] [21:18:10] <Tod> I saw it, and I love it
[Sun 13] [21:18:13] <Tod> Especially the rhino :D
[Sun 13] [21:18:49] <TommyChong> thanks
[Sun 13] [21:19:51] <Tod> and, I needed to catch you art folks to talk about what we're doing for the final island art.
[Sun 13] [21:20:43] <Tod> Because I'm happy to do whatever needs to be done, but work with real media, so if I'm working on that, maybe I should pass finished pencils to you guys for digital color, or just carry on with watercolor, or some other magical option? (learn to color digitally...? :O)
[Sun 13] [21:21:00] <Kario> I approve of having this discussion.
[Sun 13] [21:21:07] <TommyChong> now?
[Sun 13] [21:21:22] <TommyChong> why not.
[Sun 13] [21:22:21] <Tod> I will say right out, I am pretty out of practice with painterly digital color, and would prefer not to do that.
[Sun 13] [21:23:11] <Tod> but am not super adamant about that, just kinda lazy
[Sun 13] [21:23:39] <TommyChong> You got me curious
[Sun 13] [21:23:54] <TommyChong> but I can color your drawings no problem
[Sun 13] [21:24:01] <Austin_J> And I don't know about coloring at all, really.
[Sun 13] [21:24:24] <TommyChong> eep
[Sun 13] [21:24:34] <Tod> That would be awesome, and I think help keep the island view styles consistent when we divide the labor on that art.
[Sun 13] [21:25:16] <Tod> and if I end up tackling stuff like interior shots and whatnot, that'd be fun to do in watercolor.
[Sun 13] [21:25:26] <Austin_J> Really, I think my contribution to the islands is gonna have to be concept art to send to you guys to riff off with your own ideas. Once I get this scanner working again, at least.
[Sun 13] [21:26:02] <TommyChong> alright.
[Sun 13] [21:26:36] <Austin_J> Unless we decide we need computer models of such.
[Sun 13] [21:27:03] <Tod> so... presumably, work on the final capital city art will start once the writers have their concepts solidified for those, and we're good to divide up that project.
[Sun 13] [21:29:06] <Tod> and, if that's not this week, I think I'll keep working on style concepts for faction people, maybe try out some ideas for the other two groups.
[Sun 13] [21:29:22] <Tod> I had -so much fun- working on these, this week, so I'm feeling pretty awesome about this project.
[Sun 13] [21:29:53] <TommyChong> I think you should be in charge of the characters.
[Sun 13] [21:32:09] <Tod> I could do that
[Sun 13] [21:36:41] <Kario> Well, we can start putting out directions for the capital city art to go this week.
[Sun 13] [21:36:47] <Tod> nice
[Sun 13] [21:37:01] <Kario> The other question I'd like to talk about now that I'm no longer the only core admin present is character creation.
[Sun 13] [21:37:52] <Tod> cool. I have thoughts on that.
[Sun 13] [21:38:56] <TommyChong> character classes! \o/
[Sun 13] [21:40:35] <Kario> I'm open to the idea of "racials," but I agree with everyone who says that choices you make at the start shouldn't doom you in the end.
[Sun 13] [21:41:14] <Burrito_Loco> I don't like classes
[Sun 13] [21:41:25] <Burrito_Loco> Since our "stats" are our planes
[Sun 13] [21:41:29] <Tod> I think, if we do actual stats for different species, it might be good to have them be tied to general groups of animals, but I'm more for that just being a cosmetic thing
[Sun 13] [21:41:42] <Burrito_Loco> It makes no damn sense for a giraffe to go faster than an otter
[Sun 13] [21:41:55] <Burrito_Loco> (in a plane)
[Sun 13] [21:42:04] <Tod> giraffes are like -lightning-
[Sun 13] [21:42:04] <Kario> Right, most of the plane stats wouldn't be affected by this.
[Sun 13] [21:42:34] <TommyChong> what about trading skills and the like
[Sun 13] [21:43:02] <TommyChong> I can understand if you don't want to include this in the first release
[Sun 13] [21:43:32] <Kario> This is probably a 1.3/2.0 thing, but as long as we're here...
[Sun 13] [21:43:42] <Austin_J> Bonus starting skills, perhaps? Everyone ends up in the same place eventually, and presumably (if we have skills) it'll have inflating costs for each level, so an early level one skill or another wouldn't be too unbalancing. But then, it wouldnt be differentiating characters for long.
[Sun 13] [21:44:20] <Kario> On that note, how do we want to handle advancement?
[Sun 13] [21:44:38] <Kario> I'm firmly of the opinion that we should just use an FP analog and nothing else.
[Sun 13] [21:44:41] <Burrito_Loco> Either they're unbalancing or irrelevant, I'd rather not have them, 's all I'm saying
[Sun 13] [21:44:58] <Burrito_Loco> I liked the fact that more fighting made you better at fighting, etc
[Sun 13] [21:44:59] <Tod> I think with animals, that would end up being pretty arbitrary. Who's better at fast talking, a cat or a weasel?
[Sun 13] [21:45:17] <Kario> (Don't get the fandom involved in this discussion; you'll never hear the end of it.)
[Sun 13] [21:45:21] * Burrito_Loco is a fan of the Elder Scrolls system
[Sun 13] [21:45:35] <Kario> Elaborate on tat.
[Sun 13] [21:45:35] <Kario> *that
[Sun 13] [21:45:46] <Burrito_Loco> Every skill levels up as you use it
[Sun 13] [21:46:00] <Tod> I'd prefer using animal characters as human stand-ins, who are good or not good at what the player imagines, all with the same potential.
[Sun 13] [21:46:15] <Burrito_Loco> Jump a lot and you're better at jumping, use a sword extensively you're better with swords
[Sun 13] [21:46:19] <Tod> yeah
[Sun 13] [21:46:36] <Burrito_Loco> Now, I don't know if we want it that fine
[Sun 13] [21:47:00] <Burrito_Loco> But I like the idea that at least fighting only makes you better at combat, etc
[Sun 13] [21:47:05] <Austin_J> Doesn't the Skyrates XP system kind of become a less-fine version of that?
[Sun 13] [21:47:21] <Burrito_Loco> The current one is, yes
[Sun 13] [21:47:47] <Austin_J> (With a few weird outliers for skills that don't quite fit into the scheme, like Trade Prestige)
[Sun 13] [21:49:13] <Kario> Okay, broader question, since this one stumped the SR devs multiple times.
[Sun 13] [21:49:24] <Kario> Is this meant to be a sporadic game?
[Sun 13] [21:52:04] <TommyChong> I imagine yes, hence the comic thingie.
[Sun 13] [21:53:26] <Kario> More specifically, is this meant to be a game you play for five to twenty minutes multiple times a day, or is this meant to be a game you play for a few hours from time to time?
[Sun 13] [21:53:31] <Kario> Or neither?
[Sun 13] [21:54:31] <Tod> I would like it if there was a way for the game to support both, somehow - things which take a longer period of time that you can poke at, and stuff to play when you're bored and want to play -now-
[Sun 13] [21:56:16] <Austin_J> Ideally, a thing where you build up a couple hour's worth of stuff to do over the course of a day, and can choose to take care of it either in short bursts throughout the day, or a session each night before bed or whatever, would seem like an ideal goal.
[Sun 13] [21:56:43] <Austin_J> Now, whether that can be realized or not, I dunno.
[Sun 13] [21:57:46] <Kario> Well, the important thing is to set the goal and stick to it.
[Sun 13] [21:58:10] <Kario> Corollary question: Do we want to actively discourage hardcore play?
[Sun 13] [22:01:17] <Tod> I think it would be fair to reward folks who put a lot of time into gameplay, but not to the point where it becomes an unfun advantage over people who don't.
[Sun 13] [22:02:08] <Tod> my brother's game has a few things that if you sit there and babysit it, you can get more tokens, but there's also an option to leave it be and get a comparable amount of tokens... just not quite as many
[Sun 13] [22:04:30] <Kario> Okay. Part of the reason I was suggesting something strictly cue-based was to discourage grinding. If we're not discouraging grinding, it's less necessary.
[Sun 13] [22:06:07] <Kario> Er, queue-based.
[Sun 13] [22:06:29] * Kario handwaves his mistake away.
[Sun 13] [22:09:22] * Tod nods
[Sun 13] [22:10:16] <Kario> To go with something more relevant to the artists, are there any templates we're wanting to include?
[Sun 13] [22:11:35] <Kario> (To clarify a bit, to the general public, wolf and fox are incredibly similar, but if we're catering to the fandom, it's essential to have both.)
[Sun 13] [22:13:08] <Tod> okay!
[Sun 13] [22:13:38] <Tod> I was working out how much work would go into a paper-doll sort of character maker, versus having a battery of character portraits.
[Sun 13] [22:14:01] <Kario> I am not the person to answer that.
[Sun 13] [22:14:10] * Kario pokes the coders.
[Sun 13] [22:14:22] <Tod> And my final conclusion is that it might be cool to have an archive of different character portraits folks can pick for their characters, instead of a paperdoll thing, because while a paperdoll would allow much more customization...
[Sun 13] [22:14:48] <Tod> all of the characters would need the same pose, the same build, and similar expressions, and I think for the amount of work that would have to go into making it all fit together, that would be a little lame.
[Sun 13] [22:15:45] <Tod> if we have no species modifiers, or modifiers based on categories of animal (feline, canine, equine, etc), for the same amount of work, we could have a selection of portraits with different species, builds, genders, poses and whatnot.
[Sun 13] [22:16:37] <Burrito_Loco> Hmm?
[Sun 13] [22:16:53] <Tod> it could start out as a smaller selection, and be something we could buid up over time. Maybe a premium content add-on could be access to a larger archive of character portraits.
[Sun 13] [22:17:17] <Burrito_Loco> I'm not doing dynamic art generation
[Sun 13] [22:17:59] <Tod> plus, I could sell the pictures to help cover the time that goes into them :B
[Sun 13] [22:18:08] <Tod> which I couldn't do if it were paper dolls
[Sun 13] [22:19:32] <TommyChong> custom color?
[Sun 13] [22:20:09] <Tod> no idea about the logistics of that
[Sun 13] [22:21:31] * Bali (~[e-mail]) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[Sun 13] [22:21:33] <Tod> but, I can crank out character portraits pretty quickly, and really enjoy it.
[Sun 13] [22:21:36] <Burrito_Loco> Assuming we're talking pure palette swaps, it shouldn't be too bad. You might even just shop around the colors
[Sun 13] [22:21:47] <Tod> that's very easy, yeah
[Sun 13] [22:21:57] <Tod> I do that with watercolor stuff occasionally
[Sun 13] [22:24:54] <Tod> I work with a lightbox, so it's also pretty easy to take a sketch and ink costuming varients onto it.
[Sun 13] [22:28:18] <Tod> (and, uh, yes, I agree, foxes -and- wolves: important)
[Sun 13] [22:29:16] <TommyChong> and many types of cats?
[Sun 13] [22:29:38] <Kario> If you're doing palette swaps, you can get by with two body shapes.
[Sun 13] [22:31:37] <Tod> fox, dog and wolf body-types, small cat and big cat...
[Sun 13] [22:31:45] <Kario> Hm. Experiment.
[Sun 13] [22:31:55] <Tod> Want me to run with some sketches, this week?
[Sun 13] [22:32:10] <Kario> Everyone who's actually participating, poke a non-furry you know (or three or four) and ask them to name off eight mammals.
[Sun 13] [22:32:19] <Kario> Tell me what you end up with here.
[Sun 13] [22:32:50] <Tod> haha
[Sun 13] [22:32:58] <Kario> (land mammals)
[Sun 13] [22:33:35] <Tod> cow, cat, fox, beaver, kangaroo, dog, platypus, rat
[Sun 13] [22:34:46] <Kario> (I am actually having a hard time doing this because none of my non-furry friends are online right now.)
[Sun 13] [22:36:21] <Tod> should not be too hard to come up with a good selection of charismatic carnivores and somewhat silly animals in people-clothes.
[Sun 13] [22:37:13] <Kario> No, not really. I'm just trying to get a sampling of what people are likeliest to expect.
[Sun 13] [22:37:28] * Tod nodnods
[Sun 13] [22:37:45] <TommyChong> I got a list of chinese zodiac animals in return. :x
[Sun 13] [22:37:55] <Kario> Haha, okay.
[Sun 13] [22:38:48] <Kario> And I apparently have weird friends of friends.
[Sun 13] [22:38:49] <Kario> elephant, tiger, wolf, moose, kangaroo, grizzly bear, lion, chinchilla
[Sun 13] [22:40:31] <Tod> these are all excellent animals
[Sun 13] [22:41:39] <Kario> Honestly palette swaps alone will do a lot to help us broaden the horizon.
[Sun 13] [22:41:57] <Kario> There are a lot of things we could cover with "canine" and "equine" palettes.
[Sun 13] [22:42:49] <Tod> yeah
[Sun 13] [22:43:03] <Tod> it would be fun to leave open the option of adding more art, though.
[Sun 13] [22:43:45] <Kario> But yeah, why don't you try to give us some various canid and equine and felid and rodent sketches in green and blue wear.
[Sun 13] [22:43:54] * Tod nodnods
[Sun 13] [22:43:59] <Kario> Red wear will probably differ somewhat depending on if we do it in the desert or not.
[Sun 13] [22:44:13] <Tod> when will we know, for red?
[Sun 13] [22:44:59] <Kario> I'm closing the assignment in two weeks, we'll discuss the best proposals, and something will be made canon.
[Sun 13] [22:45:05] <Tod> awesome
[Sun 13] [22:47:15] <Kario> (For the record, I specified 'non-furry' because any furry you ask will list their species first, along with some variant on wolf/fox/some-number-of-cats/otter/rabbit/weasel-thing/other-canids/dragon. Maybe a squirrel, mouse/rat, or skunk.)
[Sun 13] [22:48:03] <Burrito_Loco> Dragons are not furry in the least. They are large, potentially flammable and scaly.
[Sun 13] [22:48:37] <Tod> otters are totally awesome at airplanes
[Sun 13] [22:50:53] <Tod> also, we should have primates
[Sun 13] [22:51:03] * Austin_J is asking people the eight mammals question
[Sun 13] [22:51:55] <Austin_J> Here's what I got from the first person: platypus, girraffe, zebra, cow, cat , dog, human, rat, mouse
[Sun 13] [22:52:05] <Tod> and we must include the elephant shrew, nobelest of mammals a-z-animals.com/media/animals/images/470x370/elephant_shrew.jpg
[Sun 13] [22:52:44] <TommyChong> no llamas?
[Sun 13] [22:52:55] <Tod> I think we're going to have to include a platypus, guys.
[Sun 13] [22:53:41] <Kario> Apparently.
[Sun 13] [22:53:50] <Kario> Platypi will at least look delightfully silly.
[Sun 13] [22:55:18] <Tod> with their little tophats
[Sun 13] [22:55:43] <Burrito_Loco> Not many people know that all platypi in the wild have top hats
[Sun 13] [22:55:59] <Austin_J> Second response: Zebras, dolphins, humans, cats, dogs horses, camels, and porcupines
[Sun 13] [22:56:53] <Tod> yes, they take off the tophats for photographs, though, like gentlemen
[Sun 13] [22:57:11] * Tod is making notes from these survey results
[Sun 13] [22:58:51] * Tod gets some other results - Giraffe, sheep, cat, dog, marmoset, bat, ocelot, tiger
[Sun 13] [23:02:28] <Kario> I am delightfully surprised at all the cats people are including.
[Sun 13] [23:02:54] <TommyChong> dogs
[Sun 13] [23:03:25] <Talon> mornign, all
[Sun 13] [23:04:50] <Kario> He speaks. Care to help me continue the species polling?
[Sun 13] [23:05:13] <Talon> <3 elder scrolls system (i'm reading back through logs)
[Sun 13] [23:07:01] <Talon> lol tommy
[Sun 13] [23:07:06] <Tod> everyone will want to play one of these - 3citynewswire.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/4ce0f9d5-4b48-4022-a95f-bebb0ca5c6b4_mw800_mh600_s.jpg
[Sun 13] [23:07:08] <Talon> chinese zodiac go!
[Sun 13] [23:07:34] <Talon> hm, so
[Sun 13] [23:07:45] <Talon> I mean, Tod, if you are awesome with character creation
[Sun 13] [23:07:50] <Talon> we can just start with a few and then go from there
[Sun 13] [23:08:17] <Kario> Popular demand clearly indicates that we need platypi, though.
[Sun 13] [23:08:22] <Talon> lawl
[Sun 13] [23:08:31] <Talon> wolf/fox/lynx/lion/dog(saint bernardish)/ferret/horse/rodentia
[Sun 13] [23:08:38] <Talon> i should say 'equine' instead of horse
[Sun 13] [23:08:51] <Talon> and maybe add on a cow, but yeah
[Sun 13] [23:09:02] <Kario> I'm trying to get a friend to poll his WoW guild but he's either being slow or stubborn. I'm not sure which.
[Sun 13] [23:09:04] <Talon> static character portraits, maybe in a few poses, no paperdollin'
[Sun 13] [23:09:06] <Kario> My money's on slow.
[Sun 13] [23:09:06] <Talon> lol
[Sun 13] [23:09:26] <Tod> I'm trying to poll my plurk list, but they're sleepy
[Sun 13] [23:09:30] * Talon shrugs.
[Sun 13] [23:09:36] <Talon> probably not that super-important to get the 'right' set to start out
[Sun 13] [23:09:44] <Talon> as long as we have a set, you can add on whatever you want, really
[Sun 13] [23:09:55] <Kario> Basically.
[Sun 13] [23:09:59] <Talon> and if we want to (heh) we can have some of the more 'unique' characters be only available after the primary has reached X level
[Sun 13] [23:10:07] <Talon> which encourages engagement and continuation
[Sun 13] [23:10:19] <Talon> what's next on the agenda?
[Sun 13] [23:10:19] <Kario> That's an entertaining possibility I hadn't thought of.
[Sun 13] [23:10:22] * Talon bows.
[Sun 13] [23:10:43] <Kario> There was a brief discussion of character advancement and the sporadicness (or lack thereof) of our gameplay.
[Sun 13] [23:10:53] <Kario> The latter is an important issue to keep in mind at all times.
[Sun 13] [23:11:07] <Talon> yes, and i think that's a pretty heavy issue
[Sun 13] [23:11:08] <Kario> What I'm taking away so far is that we want to cater to both types effectively.
[Sun 13] [23:11:23] <Talon> 'effectively' is always going to be an issue
[Sun 13] [23:11:28] <Kario> (Marmot, tiger, wolf, dog, cat, sheep, cow, hamster)
[Sun 13] [23:11:36] <Talon> i think the goal is that the casuals can have fun whilst the hardcore types can still find engagement
[Sun 13] [23:11:38] <Austin_J> (dolphin, horse, elephant, rhino, ape, gorilla, kangaroo, deer)
[Sun 13] [23:11:46] <Kario> (Dolphins are not land mammals.)
[Sun 13] [23:12:01] <Austin_J> (Yeah, but I didn't bother to specify)
[Sun 13] [23:12:02] <Talon> which is to say, yes, grinding should be strictly better than occasional play, but not so much
[Sun 13] [23:12:18] <Talon> the goal is to produce engagement, period; the engagement translates to revenue translates to salaries for people
[Sun 13] [23:12:22] <Talon> :P
[Sun 13] [23:12:27] <Talon> translates to continued iteration
[Sun 13] [23:12:28] <Austin_J> So, diminishing returns?
[Sun 13] [23:12:40] <Talon> is one way to do it
[Sun 13] [23:12:51] <Talon> the Skyrates method (with a better autocompleter) is another
[Sun 13] [23:12:53] <Kario> So we need any RP event that will affect land control to not encourage grinding, and we need upper-level players to not totally wreck lower-tier traderoutes.
[Sun 13] [23:13:14] <Talon> RP events /can/ encourage grinding
[Sun 13] [23:13:23] <Talon> but only if they don't happen all the time and the bonuses aren't that much
[Sun 13] [23:13:28] <Tod> marten, jaguarundi, dog, maned wolf, honey badger, elephant (commentary from poll-ee "even though I hate elephants, it would be cool to have people with tusks. They might be killed for their tusks. Look I'm sorry but that would be really interesting in a D&D game, you know?"), gazelle, "those little Japanese flying squirrels that are like pokemon"
[Sun 13] [23:13:30] <Kario> Well, at least to keep an Acero from happening.
[Sun 13] [23:13:34] <Talon> if someone wants to invest so much as to play a part in the world, then by god, they need to spend time in the world
[Sun 13] [23:13:35] <Tod> and I've been informed to swap out "dog" for "slow loris"
[Sun 13] [23:13:50] <Talon> i think elephants and rhinos would be really cool, tod/tommy
[Sun 13] [23:14:03] <Talon> acero isn't bad, it's just a matter of nerfing acero
[Sun 13] [23:14:03] <Talon> like
[Sun 13] [23:14:11] <Talon> powerplayers are inherently necessary
[Sun 13] [23:14:18] <Talon> they just can't, by themselves, change the course of history
[Sun 13] [23:14:21] <Kario> Right, but Green's rise at the time was like, entirely Acero.
[Sun 13] [23:14:26] <Talon> right
[Sun 13] [23:14:32] <Talon> it's a balancing issue
[Sun 13] [23:14:36] <Talon> but it's not unsolveable
[Sun 13] [23:14:54] <Kario> Traderoutes, fortunately, is much more solvable.
[Sun 13] [23:14:58] <Talon> i think diminishing returns may be part of it, but I tend to try to stay away from solutions that say 'hey, you're done now, stop playin'
[Sun 13] [23:15:05] <Talon> because that's the worst sort of experience you can give
[Sun 13] [23:15:11] <Tod> another friend: elephant, tiger, mongoose, weasel, mouse, rat, bunny, human.
[Sun 13] [23:15:25] <Kario> (I approve of the inclusion of a mongoose avatar.)
[Sun 13] [23:15:36] <Talon> lagomorphs are probably a good idea as well
[Sun 13] [23:16:00] <Talon> traderoutes is just a matter of making it so that more expensive routes are far and higher tiers, if you will
[Sun 13] [23:16:09] <Kario> Lapines are almost certainly going to be included.
[Sun 13] [23:16:11] <Talon> very easily solved without any 'real' systems
[Sun 13] [23:16:22] <Kario> I'm also looking at keeping constant demand up on lower-tier goods.
[Sun 13] [23:16:28] <Talon> but at the same time, you also want the higher tier players occasionally to come in and 'bomb' the lower tiers
[Sun 13] [23:16:34] <Talon> so that all players see that they have an effect on all other players
[Sun 13] [23:16:55] <Kario> I'd say mid-tiers can be bombed but not low-tiers.
[Sun 13] [23:16:58] <Talon> if you structure them too rigidly, it feels like you're only competing with your own segment and that's less good than 'i can be a megamillionaire and make newbies cry' (though we limit that)
[Sun 13] [23:17:12] <Talon> as long as the bombing lasts less than 24 hours, it should be perfectly fine
[Sun 13] [23:17:28] <Talon> it'll drive the trade people to combat more, or if someone bombs all the easy combats, for those people to stay away a bit more and trade
[Sun 13] [23:17:45] <Talon> which is to say that the goal is to gently drive people out of their preferred realms
[Sun 13] [23:17:46] <Talon> etc
[Sun 13] [23:17:49] <Kario> Hm. Limit the bombing to a point where lower-tier still makes A profit (maybe 2%) and I'm okay with that too.
[Sun 13] [23:18:09] <Talon> yeah, it would reduce the effectiveness but it won't mean that anyone loses money (cept for the bomber, prolly)
[Sun 13] [23:18:56] <Kario> Ideally it would also be difficult to bomb every starting traderoute in the game.
[Sun 13] [23:19:03] <Talon> oh, absolutely
[Sun 13] [23:19:18] <Talon> it's more something that requires a sort of sunrunner 'i have too much money' thing than anything else
[Sun 13] [23:19:24] <Kario> Hmmmmm.
[Sun 13] [23:19:26] <Talon> i.e. it's possible, but it's extremely difficult and not worthwhile
[Sun 13] [23:19:48] <Talon> unless it's an event, in which case, it's still difficult but individually doable, and you can calculate the effect based on how many players choose to take part
[Sun 13] [23:21:24] <Kario> Back to goods, though, I'd like to have four rough tiers.
[Sun 13] [23:21:57] <Talon> why four? :P
[Sun 13] [23:21:59] <Austin_J> As opposed to Skyrate's three?
[Sun 13] [23:22:04] <Kario> Raw goods: normal markets only, constant supply and demand and only bombable in the sense that you can reduce the profit to near-zero.
[Sun 13] [23:22:18] <Kario> Designed for lower-tier planes or AFK trading.
[Sun 13] [23:22:50] <Talon> keyo, type faster
[Sun 13] [23:22:51] <Talon> lol
[Sun 13] [23:23:15] <Kario> Refined goods: normal markets and sporadic black market availability, variable supply and demand, larger price ranges. This will give us situations like the Echo-Tehras steel run and steel crash, if anyone remembers that.
[Sun 13] [23:24:19] <Kario> Luxury items: normal markets and sporadic black market availability, sporadic supply and demand. You can only buy them in a few places and sell them in a few places, and where you can and can't sell them will change. High potential profit margin.
[Sun 13] [23:25:03] <Kario> Contraband: black market only, three types, each one banned by a different nation. High profit margin but will immediately be lost if you land where it's banned.
[Sun 13] [23:25:29] <Kario> Sporadic availability.
[Sun 13] [23:26:53] <Austin_J> The question that comes to mind here is what happens when you buy some luxes, then set a queue, and the place that was willing to buy those luxes you were planning to sell at changes its mind before you land there?
[Sun 13] [23:26:56] <Kario> The last may need some refinement, since I think the idea we eventually settled on is that land control will only shift during regular RP events.
[Sun 13] [23:27:08] <Talon> i'm not sure that's a good idea
[Sun 13] [23:27:42] <Kario> Um, sucks for you? Wait until someone else buys it somewhere, rumors of possible locations can be picked up if you develop a skill.
[Sun 13] [23:28:01] <Talon> So our player Marcus (i like the name) starts out in a crappy plane and trades vegetables around some skylets, until he has enough money to start running lumber. He runs lumber for a bit and then gets to a skyland proper that can trade steel and oil, and he starts doing industrial trading after he getsa a better plane, that he stays in for a while.
[Sun 13] [23:28:02] <Talon> Once he downs some pirates and collects the bounty on their heads, he decides, oh, time to trade up to a fast perf trader, and start nailing diamonds and caviar, as well as relics. From time to time, he trades some catnip and grog, both interdicted by ~red and ~green, and stays away from their territory, for fear of coming up to one of their patrols. When he's away from the computer, he goes
[Sun 13] [23:28:02] <Talon> back to oil and steel.
[Sun 13] [23:29:18] <Austin_J> No, I meant, what happens from a queue perspective? You can't sell the stuff, so that screws up buy orders in the future.
[Sun 13] [23:30:36] <Austin_J> And we can't rely on players realizing something like that is a bad idea.
[Sun 13] [23:31:25] <Austin_J> It's something the coders will have to explicitly work around for the queue code. (although the simplest solution is to disallow trading luxes and contraband on queue)
[Sun 13] [23:32:05] <Kario> Talon, elaborate a bit more on what specific aspects you don't like, and also the coders need to discuss what CAN be done about Austin's scenario before we go to what should be.
[Sun 13] [23:33:42] <Austin_J> (technically, the same thing could happen with buying luxes on queue)
[Sun 13] [23:33:49] <Talon> nothing i don't like, i'm presuming my summary is a good example of your thoughts
[Sun 13] [23:34:26] <Talon> and they'd still buy it, just at vastly reduced prices
[Sun 13] [23:34:36] <Talon> though you can have a preference set to not sell if the price is below x
[Sun 13] [23:35:05] <TommyChong> I need to go in a moment
[Sun 13] [23:35:14] <TommyChong> anything for me to do this week?
[Sun 13] [23:35:32] <Kario> I'll post an assignment in your art thread.
[Sun 13] [23:35:36] <Talon> yes
[Sun 13] [23:35:36] <Kario> Or PM you.
[Sun 13] [23:35:37] <Talon> color things
[Sun 13] [23:35:38] <Kario> Or something.
[Sun 13] [23:35:39] <Talon> digital art
[Sun 13] [23:35:43] <Talon> i wanna see a skyland background
[Sun 13] [23:36:01] <TommyChong> 'kay
[Sun 13] [23:36:05] <Kario> Go with our green or blue capital since those are more realized now.
[Sun 13] [23:36:12] <Talon> or anything
[Sun 13] [23:36:15] <Talon> because, you know, anything is good :p
[Sun 13] [23:36:25] <TommyChong> pff
[Sun 13] [23:36:47] <Kario> And sketch up a hangar built out of a kraken skeleton.
[Sun 13] [23:36:57] <TommyChong> ...whoa
[Sun 13] [23:37:03] <TommyChong> alright
[Sun 13] [23:37:15] <Kario> For the requisite Wacky Idea of the Week.
[Sun 13] [23:38:33] <TommyChong> okay then, will check back later
[Sun 13] [23:39:10] <Kario> To restate Austin's question, I think he's asking what happens if the lux goods literally cannot be bought or sold at the queued location?
[Sun 13] [23:39:30] <Austin_J> Yeah, and how that affects later queued trades.
[Sun 13] [23:41:41] * Mahm is now known as Mahmoth
[Sun 13] [23:44:10] <Talon> it's something we shoudn't handle
[Sun 13] [23:44:11] <Talon> i.e.
[Sun 13] [23:44:15] <Talon> 'can't buy' shouldn't be a thing
[Sun 13] [23:47:04] <Kario> Hm. So what if lux goods had only set spawn locations and set sale locations and just defaulted to 'green' at all times, except for when periodically a spawn location went purple.
[Sun 13] [23:48:48] <Talon> i.e. the skyrates way of doing things
[Sun 13] [23:48:49] <Talon> lol
[Sun 13] [23:50:18] <Soren_> my desktop seems like it's dying <.< anything still happening?
[Sun 13] [23:50:33] <Austin_J> Discussing trade ideas
[Sun 13] [23:52:17] <Kario> Ahem.
[Sun 13] [23:52:26] <Kario> I missed whatever anyone said to that proposal.
[Sun 13] [23:53:32] <Austin_J> Talon had a response, I'll let him repeat it
[Sun 13] [23:58:10] <Kario> I'm trying to brainstorm the best ways to handle differing types of goods, since ideally I want higher-level trading to be appreciably different in its various aspects.
[Sun 13] [23:58:30] <Talon> mmm
[Sun 13] [23:58:37] <Talon> ''appreciably different' is hard
[Sun 13] [23:59:21] <Kario> Luxuries in general would be difficult to properly balance.
[Mon 14] [00:00:17] <Kario> Contraband has the restriction that you cannot land at certain ports and possibly a chance of inspections (that you could bribe away) so that sort of keeps itself balanced by the risk involved.
[Mon 14] [00:01:12] <Talon> mhm
[Mon 14] [00:01:17] <Talon> it's mostly the coding behind 'oh hey you can't sell this'
[Mon 14] [00:03:37] <Kario> Maybe if it stopped the queue?
[Mon 14] [00:06:45] <Talon> terrible from a gameplay perspective
[Mon 14] [00:07:17] <Talon> the best sort of thing would be to 'hold' those goods there, at that skyland, and let the player continue his queue
[Mon 14] [00:07:25] <Talon> and then he can pick them up later (at a tax, of course)
[Mon 14] [00:07:51] <Kario> If that's codeable,
[Mon 14] [00:07:58] <Kario> *I approve of the solution.
[Mon 14] [00:08:00] <Austin_J> Hmm... that give me an idea.
[Mon 14] [00:09:57] <Austin_J> Warehouse system that you can store any good at, for a fee, by choice (as well as automatically using it in Talon's scenario)
[Mon 14] [00:10:29] <Kario> And possibly a player 'skill' to increase capacity?
[Mon 14] [00:13:40] <Austin_J> I was thinking unlimited capacity, and just balancing the costs so that using the warehouses tends to not be a good idea in most situations (since you can still carry only one load at at time). It might be abusable enough that a capped capacity might be needed, though.
[Mon 14] [00:17:08] <Kario> Or if we are using the Elder Scrolls system, maybe a frequent user discount?
[Mon 14] [00:22:16] <Kario> The way I see it, we start out by figuring out general market behavior, get flavor and names and sprites, then worry about actual numbers when we get a map and distances.
[Mon 14] [00:32:34] <Tod> gotta afk a bit
[Mon 14] [00:47:04] <Tod> back
[Mon 14] [00:47:23] <TommyChong> back too. <.<
[Mon 14] [00:48:24] <TommyChong> I see we're talking about warehouse.
[Mon 14] [01:05:28] <Tod> has a general clothing style for !Blue been decided?
[Mon 14] [01:10:20] <Soren_> I'd like to know the answer to that too.
[Mon 14] [01:11:10] <Kario> Not as far as I know, but I'll try to get that worked out when I get back.
[Mon 14] [01:12:19] <Soren_> quite frankly I imagined loose clothing in general after reading the general description.
[Mon 14] [01:19:18] <Tod> art nouveau sorta showy Victorian stuff?
[Mon 14] [01:21:29] <Burrito_Loco> For green?
[Mon 14] [01:22:49] <Austin_J> Green should have hats.
[Mon 14] [01:22:55] <Austin_J> Like, fedoras.
[Mon 14] [01:23:50] <Kario> Okay, I think general climates can be summed up thus:
[Mon 14] [01:24:05] <Kario> Green: cold temperate like Boston or London.
[Mon 14] [01:24:21] <Tod> I've got Green down, I think
[Mon 14] [01:24:31] <Kario> Blue: warm temperate like Athens or San Fran.
[Mon 14] [01:24:54] <Kario> Red: Middle East.
[Mon 14] [01:25:17] <Burrito_Loco> You realize the coastal conditions make SF more like London. I would say Blue's capital would be Mediterranean
[Mon 14] [01:25:34] <Kario> Athens or Rome, then.
[Mon 14] [01:25:41] <Soren_> hmmm
[Mon 14] [01:25:42] <Kario> My meteorology sucks.
[Mon 14] [01:25:53] <Kario> Someone else can help me with that.
[Mon 14] [01:26:09] <Kario> Clothing styles don't necessarily have to mirror real-world counterparts, but should at least make sense given the climate.
[Mon 14] [01:26:12] <TommyChong> yay middle east
[Mon 14] [01:26:15] * Tod nodnods
[Mon 14] [01:26:28] * Tod will run with it
[Mon 14] [01:26:38] <Tod> we're definitely making red desert, then?
[Mon 14] [01:27:14] <Kario> Yeah. Under the assumption it's easier to rebuild a captial than it is to move it entirely.
[Mon 14] [01:27:24] <Kario> Especially when one would have to fly to get to a new land.
[Mon 14] [01:27:43] <Tod> kk
[Mon 14] [01:27:49] <Tod> then I can work on red character sketches, too
[Mon 14] [01:28:46] <TommyChong> turbans
[Mon 14] [01:29:07] <Burrito_Loco> Ooh
[Mon 14] [01:29:20] <Tod> with goggles
[Mon 14] [01:29:27] <Burrito_Loco> Can I put in a vote for turn of the century Middle East?
[Mon 14] [01:29:33] <Burrito_Loco> Like Lawrence of Arabia and shit?
[Mon 14] [01:29:37] <Tod> that'd be awesome
[Mon 14] [01:30:18] <Austin_J> There's a reason I describe my RedCap concept as "Gigantic French Foreign Legion fort". With an airport.
[Mon 14] [01:30:18] <Burrito_Loco> And that's long ago enough that it takes out a lot of the current political overtones
[Mon 14] [01:30:25] <Burrito_Loco> Sounds good.
[Mon 14] [01:30:27] <Burrito_Loco> I approve
[Mon 14] [01:30:39] <Burrito_Loco> (since we all know my opinion is the most important)
[Mon 14] [01:30:52] <Kario> Sounds good to me too.

[Thorne]

Sorry I couldn't be there.

My reactions:

No new writing assignments?

As far as the !Red narrative goes, anything in there can be changed to meet final details.

On character art/avatar.. and this is a refrain you'll oft hear from me... I'm always a fan of putting the power to expand the game in the players hands and in this form I'm most inspired by all of the character customization work that skyrate's fans did so that they could have a unique avatar. I think it'd really be a shame not to provide black and white character line art to the players so they can do self customizations. Sure, those would be less polished than our quality artists' versions, but it still provides a lot of interesting content for free, and at no additional cost in work for the official artists. And above all, it makes the player feel more connected to their character, which immerses the person in the world, makes the world better and leads to role playing without role playing.

Thorne

[Eskay]

I asked for a list of eight mammals and got this:
chinchilla, pig, baboon, capybara, bush baby, elephant, giraffe, walrus

Adding that in, I totaled things up. The only normalization I've performed is to singularize, so e.g. "rat" and "mouse" and "rodent" are counted separately. This is across 11 lists, so "dog" is the only animal to appear in more than half. There are 89 suggestions (one list had 9) of 51 unique animals.

6x dog
5x cat, elephant
4x tiger
3x cow, giraffe, horse, human, kangaroo, rat, wolf
2x chinchilla, dolphin, fox, lion, mouse, platypus, sheep, zebra
1x ape, baboon, bat, beaver, bunny, bush baby, camel, capybara, deer, ferret, flying squirrel, gazelle, gorilla, grizzly bear, hamster, honey badger, jagarundi, lynx, maned wolf, marmoset, marmot, marten, mongoose, moose, ocelot, pig, porcupine, rhino, rodent, slow loris, walrus, weasel

I stand by my previous request for avatars that are drawn separately (i.e. not paper dolls), but can be colorized arbitrarily. I remain willing to write code in order to make this happen.

[talon]

I think that's completely doable, Eskay, and should be finalized in writing on our 'things decided' page.

[Eskay]

Where is that page?

[talon]

In...production.

[Eskay]

Ah okay, I was afraid I'd missed it somewhere.

[tod]

re: blank character art - I am working on some pictures this week, and as these are produced, was already intending to save uncolored, inked scans of the art. I think it would be neat to provide players with several color variants and also the option to customize line art... that's something to talk about next week, maybe, but not something that'll be hindered by my intended process as I move forward with drawing.